24 Feb 2023 20:56:09
Leafs send Robertson, Kerfoot, Hiroven and Voit Arizona for Crouse with 2 million salary kept. Arizona then deals Kerfoot.
Leafs send Sandin to Canucks for Schenn and a 2nd in 2023. Same deal could be for Soucy, Brown, Lyibushkin or Mayfield. Sandin is considered a potential top pairing guy the others (except Lyibushkin) are UFAs. Leafs might have to add a prospect like Hollowell for some of these guys?
25 Feb 2023 05:51:00
@Crawfordg
Imho, if you’re trying to pry a 6’4” 220lb 25yr old power forward with 20+ goal potential on a reasonable contract away from another team for your playoff run, you will need to offer more than a collection of undersized prospects and depth pieces. Especially if you’re looking to have salary retained.
Thinking a 1st and a good prospect like Knies gets the trade done, but the Leafs are hoping Knies develops into a player like Crouse in 2-3 yrs.
However, if you are all in now, maybe you need Crouse now, not a potential replica in 2-3 yrs. Don’t worry about the Leaf’s cap next year, it’s already problematic.
Although Sandin is a good young defender, he’s been with the Leafs since 2018, and has yet to prove he is remotely close to top pair quality. Based on ice time, he is currently a 5-6, and, at 23 (in 2 wks), getting close to a “what-you-see-is-what-you-get” appraisal.
Not saying they should give up on him, but, again, if you’re trying to convince a rival gm to give you what you need for a playoff run (like a rugged, shutdown d), you have to give something good, and outbid others. Sandin is a decent trade chip, as he still has potential.
25 Feb 2023 12:14:12
Burner, didn't realize a player who in his first 6 years maxed out at 34 points was a player who carried a ton of value. He is third line player on most teams who can fill in on the 2nd if needed.
And what is real funny is you use the term "potential" when referring to a 25 year old Crouse but "what you see is what you get" when referring to a 23 yr old dman. I think your forgetting more often then not dman take longer to develop than forwards do.
The Leafs are losing in both of these proposals. You dont trade a 23 yr old good young dman for a ufa you have no plans on keeping who will play 3rd pair minutes.
25 Feb 2023 14:21:06
I think the response to Burner89 about sums it up. Leafs would probably be open to substitution of most of their prospects except Knies for Crouse.
Sandin is considered at least a #2 guy by the experts and teams ask about him.
Leafs could go cheaper by looking at Ritchie and Njustadt but I think it is better to go for a hockey deal like Crouse, Wilson, Mantha, Bertuzzi, etc. then get another team involved to save cap. My personal favourite is Wilson but I don’t know if he is available?
If they get a decent left winger O’Reilly can become the third line Center and if Knies lives up to his potential Bunting may be moving to the third line next year?
25 Feb 2023 15:49:14
@Burner, I don't think Crouse's value is that high. I just think Arizona is not that willing to trade him away
26 Feb 2023 00:07:02
When I said “potential”, I was referring to Crouse being a 20 goal scorer.
He’s at 19 now, despite playing second or third line on a weak Coyotes team.
Who knows what he would get playing in the Leafs top six?
My point was that if you want one of the best young players from another team, and expect to outbid everyone else, you have to offer something good, not spare parts. And you’re right, the Coyotes are only offering Crouse because they hope to hit a home run. Pretending that offering less to get the trade done is an exercise in futility.
The Leafs are in a difficult position. Dubas has retained their best players, but it’s caused the team to be very top-heavy. 53m to the six highest paid players?!
That leaves less than 30m to fill 17 spots, including the goalie. You need a lot of 1-2m dollar players to fill out the roster, making almost all of them the type of players other teams already have, rather than being attractive trade chips. Kerfoot makes 3.5m, but he is average, bottom six material at best. Other teams already have guys like that.
Sandin, however, is an attractive trade chip upon which I thought Dubas might capitalize. Sure he has potential, but I was using facts like ice time, points, size, etc, to assess his value now. Leafs will probably keep him, but that means giving up something else valuable that other teams don’t already have, like another 1st rd pick.
Dubas has done very well keeping the team competitive in the regular season despite this cap handicap, but we are talking about what he can realistically do to improve their postseason. He has only so many 1st rd picks. He MUST find a way to make the defence, and the bottom six for that matter, bigger and more truculent.
Or it will be a waste of 8 days.
26 Feb 2023 02:31:04
And, not to belabour the point, but I meant to add that I looked up the prospects in the above proposed trade for Crouse, and saw expressions like “undersized, good hockey sense, but needs to improve skating, etc. ”.
26 Feb 2023 02:43:22
Neiderrieter went for a 2nd 2 drafts from now. He is better offensively and defensively than Crouse. I take Nino anyday. Robertson, Hirvonen and Voit are not spare parts, they are prospects. But following the skewed ideology by many on this site, all Leaf prospects are crap.
26 Feb 2023 11:37:35
Do you know how many successful NHL players were undersized as prospects? Marty St. Loius, Marchand, Fleury just to start with many more. How many guys needed to work on skating? Most of the present day NHL group. That's why they are prospects. Some make it, many dont. All prospects have things they need to work on or figure out.
Bottom line, you dont give up 3 prospects for a 3rd liner or a third pairing dman unless you need to clear contracts for cap reasons or space in your top 50.
27 Feb 2023 13:37:10
Burner's take on Crouse is that of a "hockey" person who gets it.
Crouse is a big guy with pop, and size still matters in the NHL playoffs.
As hockey fans of a particular team you can get bent out of shape because someone thinks your offer isn't good enough, but most hockey observers would see that adding a guy like Crouse to a playoff lineup is a big addition that can't be measured in stats alone. You either get that or you don't.
Another great thing about Crouse is that he's under contract for 4 more years @ 4.3M/ season. That's a great value contract, especially for a guy who hasn't hit his prime. He's also never had the opportunity to play for a good NHL team. I'd grab him in a second.
27 Feb 2023 19:19:47
Chickenfoot, never said I woulldnt trade for or want Cfouse on my team. I just wouldnt pay that price Burner suggested. Just me and my opinion.
27 Feb 2023 20:55:18
Hey COULSON, I respect your opinion, and was also sharing mine. (I was replying to the thread, not you specifically. ) ?.